For Better, Worse, Or Divorce Podcast

Jake Gilbreath meets with Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Supervisor Sammy Jo Allen, LMFT-S, to discuss a recent CNN article titled “the bright side of divorce, according to experts.” With the help of the article, Jake and Sammy highlight the positive outcomes of divorce, from new beginnings to healthier co-parenting dynamics and personal empowerment.

To reach out to Sammy Jo Allen directly: https://primepsychiatrymd.com/meet-our-staff/sammy-jo-allen/

If you are interested in discussing your Texas family law matter with one of us, visit www.waltersgilbreath.com or email us podcast@waltersgilbreath.com

Your hosts have earned a reputation as fierce and effective advocates inside and outside of the courtroom. Both partners are experienced trial attorneys who have been board-certified in family law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization.

Jake Gilbreath: Thanks for tuning into For Better, Worse, or Divorce podcast. This is where we provide you tips and insight on how to navigate divorce and child custody situations in the state of Texas. I’m Jake Gilbreath and today I’m joined by licensed marriage and family therapist, Sammy Jo Allen. We’re going to be discussing a recent CNN article that came out titled, The Bright Side of Divorce. I think we both thought this article sheds a lot of light on divorce that we often don’t discuss. And maybe someone who’s going through a divorce could find it useful and find our insight useful. So we’re happy to have Sammy Jo here.

Thanks for joining us, Sammy Jo. Could you start off by telling us your background, what you do and where you’re from?

Sammy Jo Allen: Thanks for having me. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist supervisor and I see primarily couples. I guess it’s been almost a decade now that I’ve been in practice and the majority of that has been spent working exclusively with couples and families. Certainly a big part of that involves the aspect of divorce and what to do next with that.

Jake Gilbreath: Yeah, I would think so. What geographic area are you located in?

Sammy Jo Allen: I am in North Dallas. Frisco and the suburbs area; Frisco, Prosper, Plano, Allen, McKinney. 

Jake Gilbreath: Before we get into the article, people always ask me, how’d you get into, one, being a lawyer but two, being a family lawyer? So what led you to first of all decide to get into the mental health world and to couples counseling like you’re doing?

Sammy Jo Allen: I get that question a lot. It’s funny because I feel like I got into it for a very different reason than what couples counseling or counseling in general ended up being. In high school I was kind of the go-to person for advice for people seeking advice of all types. It never really fit for me because I personally didn’t date a whole lot, but relationship advice was like an area that I was just duped. I could serve that population well from right out of the gate.

Then I went on and studied it and I learned a lot about how counseling is not so much giving my personal advice, but really synthesizing the research. Guiding people through very research-based treatments and structured ways of processing what they themselves are experiencing. I love it and I love that I am not the person in authority over anyone else’s life. I am just there to support them.

Jake Gilbreath: That’s a really good way of putting it. We talk about that a lot on the podcast. In my experience I think the number one thing people want to hear going through a divorce is not me dictating this is what you shall do or must do. Obviously giving them advice and helping them guide them through it. I tell people it’s probably your first divorce, it’s my thousandth, but nobody wants to be dictated at. But saying, “Look, we’re there for you. We’re going to help you through this process and every divorce looks differently and we’re going to help you get through yours.”

So let’s sort of talk about this article. There’s an interesting line in it that I want to talk about just to kick off the discussion. It said that most people probably don’t head into a marriage anticipating divorce, but for those who find themselves in one, there are ways to encourage compassion for one another and ultimately build something stronger. If we talk about, not to get into your field, but obviously we talk about the stages of grief and everything and people go through the same in a divorce. In most if not all divorces, it involves a great deal of grief and it is a loss. Sometimes it’s a relief for some people, sometimes it’s something that needs to happen or it is just inevitable, but it is a loss.

When people are coming to you either maybe you’ve started seeing them and help them guide them through the start of the process, they’re coming to you after divorce has been filed, or it’s inevitable – how do you help people process that grief and that loss of the relationship no matter what was going on in the relationship? How do you help them process that?

Sammy Jo Allen: Well, I think it starts really with making sure that they are truly ready. I think sometimes people come to me with a very strong idea of what they’re ready for and what they want to do. Because marriage is such a big commitment and like you say, it’s something they are not thinking about. We’re going to get married and then it’s going to dissolve because you wouldn’t have gotten married in the first place. With couples who are teetering that line I do what’s called discernment counseling. We basically spend roughly six sessions helping the couple enter the space together because if a couple who is very sure they want to divorce an idea suggested that they go to couples counseling, they’re going to say, “No. See, that’s counter to what I’m ready to do and want to do.”

I create the space in counseling to support the fact that you’re having a lot of ambiguity. In fact, if you’re feeling pretty bent towards getting out of this, that’s okay. If at the end of six sessions you’re still at a place of saying, “I want out. We want to divorce”, that’s okay. Those six sessions in front of a professional and that time un-distracted to devote to let’s think through what does this look like? I think that really helps couples. That’s the start of them grieving that process and making peace with it because they also feel confident that we didn’t just on a whim or it was non-eventful that we just gave up. We consciously chose the path that we’re going to go on now, and even if that’s divorce.

Jake Gilbreath: I see that in my office too. Sometimes people are in the consult and they’re past that stage. Maybe they’ve worked with somebody like you. They’ve tried marriage counseling and this is where they’re at. Sometimes people are shocked and they come and talk to me, Brian, one of our partners or associates and we tell them “Certainly we’re here to do whatever you want to do, but nobody’s going to sit here and twist your arm and say, you need to get a divorce. We need to file for you.” I think it is our job to tell you legally where you’re at. If somebody comes to me and says, “My spouse doesn’t let me see the kids, I’m in an abusive relationship, or I don’t have access to finances”. It is my job to say legally these are the ways that you need to protect yourself.

I think people are often shocked that I’m not sitting there saying, “You got to file for divorce. Get this person out of your life.” That’s not my role. That’s your role and somebody processing that in your office to see if that really is something. Because again, it’s a huge decision. Even if it’s a clear decision, it’s a huge and difficult decision for people to make. I don’t ever want people to think that the lawyers are the ones ginning up the divorce and pushing people if they’re not there emotionally.

To wrap that point up, I tell people a lot of times there’s a lot of things that go into a marriage. There’s an emotional aspect to it, there’s a romantic aspect to it, sometimes there’s a religious aspect to it and there’s a legal aspect to it. I just deal with the legal aspect. There’s so much more to it though. And if somebody is protected legally or at least they understand the legal situation, it is not our role to stomp over those other very important things that go into a marriage.

So that’s great that you do those. Not to put you on the spot, but in those sessions is the goal to, quote-unquote, save the marriage to make a stereotype? Or is it a process to make sure we’re making the right decision if we are going to make it?

Sammy Jo Allen: It is just that. It is completely open-minded. I give them the three paths that I see and if they can find others, I’m open to that. Typically we have three routes we can take. We can maintain the status quo in the relationship. It is not satisfactory to either of us or one of us, but for whatever reason, financial or other, we decide we’re just going to ride it out. We’re not going to work on improving it. It is what it is. We’re just here. That’s the status quo route. Then there’s the route of divorce. It’s not working well, we are absolutely certain, we are pretty sure we want a divorce. Let’s consciously think about what that looks like and if we’re both able to make peace with that path. Then the third route of course is okay, well neither of those routes suit us best, we want to give it one more shot. We want to actually engage in couples counseling for the purpose of repair.

Yes, we’ve been in couples counseling for those six sessions, but the purpose of that is to decide which path we’re going to go on. Rather than just assume that when a couple comes to me they really want to work hard at repairing. There are times that there’s just so much stuff. It’s too much, it’s a lot and they fought hard and maybe with or without the help of a professional and they recognize it’s maybe not best for their kids. That is ultimately what I see. 

Jake Gilbreath: That kind of leads us to our next topic because I think the groundwork is important regardless of the path. If you’re going through a divorce and you’ve done hard work with your spouse, that brings us to the next topic. Let’s say it’s not either a mutual decision or somebody decides it’s not going to work and a divorce is filed. How do you help people go through that process where they’re not warring with one another? Where they have this sort of new and different relationship. Where can they move forward if there’s kids? Where they can co-parent, even if there’s no kids. Where they can collaborate and they’re not fighting like cats and dogs in a divorce or even in a post-divorce world raising kids together. How can that sort of background help? And how do you help as far as folks moving forward once the decision has been made that we’re going to be going through a divorce?

Sammy Jo Allen: I think there are definitely times where basically what you see is this protest. Sometimes one partner’s doing it and sometimes they’re both doing it. Yes, they’ve decided this but they will kind of, I’m sure you’ve seen it, rear their head in protest. They become kind of nitpicky or catty about what’s really fair and what they want for a divorce decree. But in addition to that, sometimes what you have to decipher for couples is it seems like this person is just being ridiculous. Maybe there’s something to that. Maybe there’s a specific reason why they feel entitled to this certain thing or they want to split things up in this way. You can definitely help. I think that can come through mediation. Sometimes it comes through just sheer argument and agreement to settle with two opposing counsels. This one fight is for this and that one fight is for that. And ultimately maybe we’re not both super happy but it is what it is at the end of the day. 

I think in terms of counseling there are times where I feel that individual counseling at that particular point may be most supportive of each person. Give them that time to separate, to heal and to work through the rollercoaster of what they’ve just gone through. It is considered a life crisis to divorce, even if you know it’s coming and even if you welcome it, it’s still a stressful change. I think it’s really healing independently. Sometimes there’s meaningfulness and couples can do it by mourning the loss together and say, “Hey, we tried, we wanted this to work and it just didn’t,” and that’s okay. Sometimes they can find comfort in each other in a new appropriate way for co-parents without that intimate piece to it. Other times, maybe individual counseling is more indicated for that time.

But beyond that, we do know the quicker that couples settle into their new lifestyle and accept that reality and start building the good in those separate realities, that is ultimately what we’re trying to get to.

Jake Gilbreath: Understandably, I think one of the hardest things I see my clients struggle with, and it’s interesting because I think it’s kind of what we struggle as a society, as a nation, as a whole is you can see the world very differently than somebody else and disagree on things without hating that person. And that’s a really hard thing to do. It’s a hard thing to do in a relationship. It’s a hard thing to do as a citizen of this nation. I mean you see how things are today. If you vote this way or you vote that way, you’re opposed to me. So we must hate each other and the other person must be completely wrong and have mal intentions, evil and are somebody other than this world because they don’t see the world the way I do. I mean we do that in society.

Now take that and boil it down to the most important thing in your life. Your children, the wealth that you’ve built, your family home, and there’s somebody who you shared a life with that you’re raising children with. All of a sudden you wake up one day and they see the world very differently than you do. It is hard to not have the anger that I think is natural and I think it’s hard to process that for a lot of my clients. Obviously in some cases there’s a mental health disorder driving conflict. There’s obviously your cases with narcissists or borderline personality disorder. A lot of times though it’s just I can’t believe that we don’t see eye to eye anymore on this. It’s very hurtful, it’s very scary and it’s hard to get through that process with the understanding that we can disagree without hating each other.

Frankly, my system sometimes does a bad job of encouraging people on that. I see all the time where I’ll get in a courtroom and a judge will sit there and fuss at people because they can’t settle their differences and they’re in court fighting about it. In some cases you just can’t. You just see the world differently and you have to hire advocates and you go have a trial. It doesn’t mean that we hate each other. We can do this process either through litigation. Meditation is obviously always preferred to settle your disputes. But we can all do this without hating each other and trying to minimize the harm in the children to the extent that we can.

Sammy Jo Allen: Yeah, for sure.

Jake Gilbreath: Let’s talk about focusing on the children because obviously that’s going through divorce. Where there are children involved. Even when there’s conflict the parents don’t see the world exactly the same, which can be true in a marriage and it certainly can be true at the end of a marriage. I know it’s cheesy and we talk about it all the time, but  from your perspective, how do you help people try to minimize any damage that the conflict the parents may have? The damage that it may have on the children. 

Sammy Jo Allen: That’s the one where the research is clear. It’s been clear and consistent for years and decades now. We started studying the impacts of divorce and it was surprising. I think to a lot of people we found that divorce itself is not what has the impact on our children, it is what the nature of their parents’ relationship is and what they witness or experience in the nature of their parents’ relationship. Parents can not get along at all and find a way, whether married or co-parenting, to keep that discreet enough that the kids do not suffer major impacts of it. I think kids always do better when their parents just can get along and it’s easy and it’s stress-free. I think kids sense a lot of what we don’t even realize as adults. When they’re young we think they’re too small to really perceive and get the sense of what’s happening. But a lot of times as a counselor I’ve found kids are sharp, they pick up on a lot of that stuff.

I think definitely helping the parents recognize there’s something bigger than themselves. Finding a solution throws them out the window, as far as the importance of them being able to get along. Really focus on these little people that are innocent to all this and really are creating their schemas in their brain. This is going to shape them indefinitely from this point forward. I think that’s very, very important.

Another thing that I see is parents who go through a difficult time in their marriage and the kids start to suffer. The kids start to have symptoms. The parents bring the kids in and say, “Hey, I need you to fix my kid.” My philosophy is, let me put that kid over here for a minute and let’s work on things with you guys. Then let’s just see what happens to your kiddo as if you can actually improve and model that for them. It’s amazing. Kids do what they’re supposed to do. They are typically non-pathological. So as long as their environment’s okay, kids tend to be okay, with those exceptions of genetic illness and major issues.

Jake Gilbreath: I think that my clients come to me a lot of times with a great deal of anxiety about how the divorce is going to affect the children. They say “We can’t get divorced because of the children. We can’t get a divorce because we can’t live in two different households”. Again, it’s not my role as a mental health professional but I can speak from personal experience and the experience I’ve seen in my clients.It’s not about that they’re going to be living in two different households and spending some time with one parent and another time in a different household with the other parent. It’s about how y’all act.

Again, I’m never encouraging people to get divorced. Sometimes it’s a step in the right direction for a family to be in two different households because the children are being exposed to so much conflict within the house when people are still living together. And again, I’m not encouraging anybody to get a divorce or separate, but I get a lot of clients that come to us and usually  it’s when there’s a mental health issue with one of the parents. There’s a lot of toxicity within the home with everybody living together. That separation with two different households, at a minimum, you’re going to have one stable household without the toxicity. Hopefully for both families the separation of the divorce helps both sides, as far as healing and providing a less toxic environment or hopefully a non-toxic environment for the kids. You’ve seen it. Some couples when they’re together it’s oil and water. If they’re within five feet of each other they’re just going to be toxic. The kids certainly pick up on that.

So to wrap up with this topic let’s say somebody’s going through divorce, it is a loss, it is very emotional and difficult. I do tell my clients, it’s life. There is an end to this. It will end. It will pass. Nobody’s going to tell you this is a fun process. It’s an emotional process. It’s going to be a difficult process. But you’ll get through it and life will look a lot better on the other side. The article talks about finding meaning in divorce and growing from the experience. I know me personally, I went through a divorce. That’s a great area of growth in my life looking back on it. There’s things back in that period of my life where I sort of shutter when I think about and how I’ve grown since then. My divorce is just part of that story and growth in my life.

Folks that are with you, how are you helping them see the end of the road? I know personally going through it seems like it’s never going to be over. I know for my clients, it feels like it’s never going to be over and they’re just going to be stuck in the stage for the rest of their lives. How do you help them focus? Even if it’s months, or in some cases even more than months, a year down the road? How do you help them as far as focusing on the end of this?

Sammy Jo Allen: I think sometimes we’re thinking about this idea of moving forward. I’ve done this a couple times in the podcast of bringing it back to before we can move forward we have to work on what was. With the discernment counseling, it’s making sure you can sleep at night and feel good about how much time and consideration you devoted to making this decision. Now that you’ve made this decision, sometimes it’s like a grieving process. With that I like to create it to where a person doesn’t have to throw out their entire year’s worth of marriage or months worth, sometimes these are brief. During the duration of the marriage you don’t have to throw that relationship out altogether and say, “Well, it was just a complete waste of time.” Because as you’re describing, surely there is something that you gain from it. Something that you learned in that process. Even if it’s as simple as, “Well, I learned that maybe I don’t mix well. Maybe this is something important to be talking about with potential partners. I didn’t expect it to be such a big deal, but wow, did I experience that this mattered and this I believe to be the detriment of me not being able to work with that person.”

I think there’s a lot that. We just honor the relationship for what it served for that period of time in that person’s life. Surely when there’s kids involved, it brought you some of the greatest things that you’ll ever have in your entire life. Make peace with that. I really don’t like the position where a person feels that every time that person comes up or the end of the marriage comes up, it’s a volatile topic for them. It comes with a lot of emotional distress. That to me says, “Okay, there’s more there that we can be processing because you’re not fully healed from that yet.” Time helps, but time alone doesn’t heal. It’s what we do within that time that it indicates our healing.

Jake Gilbreath: I think that’s a great way of putting it, and frankly, no better way to wrap this topic up. This has been great talking to you about this. I really appreciate it.

For our listeners, can you provide us your contact information? And for those that want to reach out, how to reach you?

Sammy Jo Allen: Sure. Right now I have my private practice called North Texas Couple and Family Therapy, and that’s the arena where I serve as the supervisor. I bring in some associates and we have a range of fees for people to get couples counseling, starting as low as $40 per session with our students. Then outside of there, I treat general mental health and I run insurance-based services through Prime Psychiatry and they have various locations. I’m personally at the Plano location. They have a location in Frisco, and soon to open one in South Lake. I can see clients in whatever capacity serves them best in either of those domains.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, that’s great. And we’ll make sure to have your contact information in the description so folks can reach out to you or one of your associates for help in their life. This has been really wonderful having you and I appreciate it. We’ll wrap up with that for what we have today. Thanks to everybody for joining us. Thanks to Sammy Jo for being here. If y’all are interested in reaching out to Sammy Jo directly, like I said, we’ll have her information in the podcast description. If there’s a topic you’d like for us to discuss in the podcast or if you want to give us some feedback, you can always email us at podcast@waltersgilbreath.com. Thanks everyone for listening. 

For information about the topics covered in today’s episode and more, you can visit our website at waltersgilbreath.com. Thanks for tuning into today’s episode of For Better, Worse or Divorce, where we host new episodes every first and third Wednesday. Do you have a topic you want discussed or a question for our hosts? Email us at podcast@waltersgilbreath.com. Thanks for listening. Until next time