Episode #118: A Mother’s Journey Navigating Family Law | Real Client Interview

Transcript

Jake Gilbreath: Thanks for tuning into For Better, Worse, or Divorce Podcast. This is a podcast where we provide you tips and insight on how to navigate divorce and child custody situations in the state of Texas. So I’m Jake Gilbreath. Today we have a special guest. I’m joined by one of our former clients, Elizabeth. Elizabeth agreed to discuss a bit about her case that she went through with us as her lawyer, her experience about being a client of the firm and walking us through what that situation was like, which we really appreciate you, Elizabeth, doing.

These child custody cases and divorces are obviously some of the most difficult situations to deal with in the legal system. And so we really appreciate Elizabeth opening up about it. We find that having real clients on the podcast and talking about their experience is really informative and helpful for people listening to the podcast or going through a family law matter themselves, or might be going through a family law matter or have a friend or a family member that’s going through one. So thanks so much for being here, Elizabeth. And could you kick us off by telling us a little bit about who you are and then a little background about your case and how you came to the firm?

Elisabeth: Sure. Well, thanks for having me on. It’s been a long and wild road. But I had been married for, gosh, seven years and filed for divorce in 2021. Have one really, really awesome kiddo. The divorce took a little bit longer than I   anticipated. Of course, divorce is never easy, but it became unfortunately quite clear fairly soon after everything was signed that we did not have the same understanding of what we had in theory agreed to. And I would not be able to stick with this until kiddo is 18.

Jake Gilbreath: And remind me, were y’all representing yourselves or did y’all have lawyers in the divorce?

Elisabeth:We had lawyers during the divorce, but kiddo was very young and I might have been a little bit more detailed than it was strictly necessary in the long-term sense of coming up with a really good agreement for kiddo’s best interest. And there are a lot of extra provisions, 52-pages long divorce decree. Too many extra provisions. And hey, hindsight is 2020. I recognize that, these days at least, I recognize that was probably not the best way to come up with a collaborative co-parenting relationship where the other parents trying to nitpick all the time. So eventually it became quite clear that it was going to be sooner rather than later. We had to get this addressed.

I’d actually heard about y’all’s firm during the divorce process as one that I did not want to go up against. And as it became clear that my first attorney was probably better at more of the collaborative law kind of a situation, and unfortunately that’s not really the situation that I found myself in. We just had completely different fundamental understandings of what we had agreed to. And there was no talking to my co-parent about some things. It was just difficult. And he’s welcome to have his own opinion, we just did not have the same opinion and I didn’t feel like it would be a good fit to go back to her because I think I probably needed someone to push back on me also and tell me some of this stuff is, I see where you’re going in the short term, but it’s not helpful in the long term. And parenting, it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint. You have to have your eye on the big picture.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, yeah, I mean agreed on that for sure. Well, I was going to say, because I remember, I think you and I did the consult when you first contacted us, and I do remember reading the decree, there’s stuff that is aspirational and for some families may make sense. And then there’s sometimes you have families, particularly when you have a high conflict personality on the other side, where you have stuff in there that may sound good in theory, but in practice when co-parenting with somebody that is not on the same page of you or not good at communication or has a personality disorder, it’s not going to work specifically for your case.

And then frankly, I think you and I talked about this in the consult, sometimes you have personalities like you who are trying to get along and make it work, and so maybe you agree to stuff that, well, maybe this will placate them or make it work, or I’ll give them what they want and then it’ll all stop. And then it’s, again, a great idea in theory and then in practice it doesn’t work out, which is I think what led to you calling us in relatively short order. After the divorce decree got done.

Elisabeth: We had the settlement conference where we resettled everything in November. The divorce decree was actually signed by a judge in March. And by August I was having my consultation with y’all. I mean, I tried to give it the best effort that I could, but it was just so clear that we were not even speaking the same language. We were probably on slightly different planes of existence. And I welcomed him to move forward with his life, do his thing his own way, it’s just we had to fix some things.

Jake Gilbreath: It was not working clearly. And it’s rare, we talked about this too in the initial consult, it’s rare that there’s an opening to go back and to fix things in such short order. And yours did have that opening though. I mean, I know there’s a lot going on. We don’t have to go into too many details, but I know there’s a lot going on. So could you share with us just generally what made that phone call? And then I know you have heard about us, but it is helpful for people to hear what that process is, contacting a firm or contacting us, because I know that’s that first phone call or first email can feel like, I would assume feels pretty overwhelming. That’s what most people report to me, that it’s such a big step even just reaching out. So what’s that like?

Elisabeth: Well, no one ever wants to go back and try and modify a case less than a year after the original decree was assigned. But there was a CPS call made after my child came home with an unexplained injury. I did not do the correct thing. I did not follow the court order. And it became clear that my co-parent was planning to take me back to court, and I definitely did not want to be self-represented at that.

So I reached out to the firm. I think I was able to get on your calendar within 24 hours of first reaching out to the firm, which was super, super helpful. And when we started talking about the dynamics of the case and the consult, I mean, I’d done a couple other consults with other firms, but none of them really inspired confidence that the attorneys just got the kind of personality that I was working with. And my own understanding that I know I’ve done something that we’re going to have to work with. I don’t claim to be perfect. I am actually looking for a straight shooter, someone who will give me feedback and say… when I’m being a jerk, you got to tell me, “Cut that nonsense out.”

Clearly I was in over my head and I felt like you got it. And you matched me with the most amazing attorney. I mean Stefani Preston-Kryder. She was my calm in a really, really crazy time. And the fact that we were able to not only get on your calendar so quickly, but Stefani just picked it up and she ran with it. Before my co-parent was even able to file his suit, she was already offering makeup time. Because I had withheld our child from my co-parent, and that was not the way to approach things. Stefani was already offering makeup time before the suit was even filed, and she helped talk me through everything. She explained why what I did was not the right thing and how we were going to go about making the situation better. I really trusted her judgment.

Very quickly, it was clear that she was not going to just blow smoke up my rear and tell me what I wanted to hear. She was going to tell me the truth. And that includes when I didn’t necessarily want to hear the things she said, but I needed to because if I was just doing things my own way, well clearly that had already gotten me in some hot water.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, it’s two extremes, right? I mean, I think I see lawyers on both two extremes where somebody comes in, maybe there’s a bad fact in the case. And yours, as I recall, there was a decision that you made that was technically not correct. There’s a scary situation with the kids, CPS was involved, but there still is an underlying court order and we got to follow the court order until there’s either a restraining order that says we don’t have to or modifies it or until there’s a hearing and judge changes it, which can be really confusing because a lot of times, and I think this even in your case, CPS will not necessarily explicitly tell you you don’t have to follow the court, but they’ll strongly hint at it. Is that a fair way of saying it?

Elisabeth: If you didn’t believe the kid was in danger, why did you take the kid to the doctor? If you are concerned about their health and safety, why are you reporting these things? And to be clear, it wasn’t even me who made the report. I took my kid to the doctor. But that being said, I should have filed something.

Jake Gilbreath: I mean, they’re doing their best, right? I mean, it’s not an easy job. They’re doing their best. They’re not always the resource that you need. But point being, you’re right, so okay, we made a decision that if you had talked to a lawyer, you had talked to us before, we probably would’ve told you, “Okay, we need to either follow the court order or we need to go file an emergency restraining order. We can’t just kind of self-help.” And you got it right away. You and I had talked about that and then you and Stefani talked about it. You got it right away.

But yeah, there’s lawyers out there that, on one extreme, will sit there and blow smoke like you were saying and say, “Well, no, you’re absolutely right and we’re not going to modify our behavior or say we were wrong or anything like that.” Well, that’s not helpful for you. And then there’s the other extreme that sits there and screams and yells at you and goes, “I can’t believe you did that. You’re absolutely wrong.” And that’s not the right approach. It’s like going to a doctor, I want the doctor telling me what I need to work on. I don’t feel like her yelling at me about it though, or saying I’m a bad person. I’m looking for somebody to help me.

And that relates to the other point I was going to make, which I really appreciate you bringing up, which is the calling the firm and talking to a lawyer the same day, which a lot of times it’ll be me or Brian or one of the partners. I think that’s something that we’ve worked really hard on at our firm and Katie and everybody in our intake team does a phenomenal job. If you’re making that hard phone call or that email to us and look, I’ve got to engage a lawyer, which like you said, nobody loves to do, particularly for a case like yours.

I would think one of the worst things to deal with is reaching out to a law firm and having to wait two, three days to go talk to a lawyer. I understand why a lot of firms, most firms, probably all firms are like that other than us, I understand why lawyers are set up that way. It’s just something that we’ve chosen at our firm to not allow. If you call our office, you need to be talking to your lawyer that day or the next day really.

Elisabeth: It meant a lot to me. It really did.

Jake Gilbreath: Yeah, it’s just a hugely anxious time, and you want to hear from somebody. And it sets the relationship right. I mean, for those that listen to the podcast, they know how much Brian and I rant about communication, but it sets the right tone. You need to be able to reach out to your lawyer and hear from him or her.

And then the last point, which I really appreciate you bringing up, is getting matched with an associate. You and I did the consult and your case was the type of case where let’s have just Stefani handle it. Sometimes you have cases where me and associates are working on it or Brian and associates are working on it. Sometimes you have cases where it’s just the associate’s going to be running with it. And I’ll say, I’m very proud of the firm that Brian and I built, and with the help of our leadership, but we really are just as good as the lawyers that we surround ourselves with. And Stefani is one of those lawyers that’s just phenomenal and she’s been on the podcast and she’s great.

So talk about her handling the case if you could. Because I know you had the enforcement and then y’all ended up kind of dovetailing into a modification all the way into a final trial that took place relatively recently, I think a few weeks ago, maybe about a month ago.

Elisabeth: Well, the enforcement suit made it very painfully clear that the agreement that we had, the court order that we had, would not work in the long term. So Stefani was nimble in a crisis. I called her my calm in savage waters. I mean, she was truly amazing. We handled the enforcement. My co-parent wanted me to go to jail for withholding our kiddo from him. That did not happen.

Jake Gilbreath: Even after you offered makeup time, as I remember, right?

Elisabeth: That is why. I think that made the biggest difference to the first judge that we had in the enforcement suit is because… And the order in the enforcement suit was exactly what we had offered before anything got filed. So I mean, I think it is a testament to Stefani’s strategic insight that we offered what the judge ordered before the suit was even filed. And I wasn’t trying to dial up the heat on anything. I wasn’t just causing issues and saying all sorts of nasty and mean things. I think it was meaningful that we kept our cool and I wasn’t trying to make things more difficult.

And then we took what we heard in that enforcement hearing, I tried to work on myself between then and when the modification trial happened. I tried really, therapy number one. I did a whole bunch of therapy. That really, really, really helped just to deal with, again, underlying dynamics in the case. I tried to fix my own behavior in any way that I could. Could not control or really even influence what was going on on the other side. But the one thing I could do is I could fix myself. So I tried to really take that feedback that the judge gave me to heart and to dial down the confrontation even further. I did a whole lot of research and I heard that yellow rock is really useful. It’s like gray rocking but with a more pleasant and positive… Anytime you’re dealing with a high conflict personality, it’s important to not meet fire with fire.

And the other one was BIFF, brief, informative, friendly, and firm, I believe is what the acronym stands for. And I just really tried to focus on kiddo. She is the most amazing part of my life. She’s the best thing that came out of that relationship. And so I really just tried to focus on making sure that she was taken care of when she was with me and just let go. If she comes back to me without injuries, then anything else that happens over there, it’s not my business. I have to just back the heck off.

And so when we actually did go into the modification suit, Stefani gave me some really good advice for how we might sweeten the pot, if you will, offering to go up to ESPO ahead of schedule in the original order, just give him some wins. It’s not all like I want him to agree to do things my way. I have to be able to give him some opportunities to feel like he’s getting more time with his daughter and be able to live his life the way that he wants to without feeling controlled by me. I felt like that was probably not really helpful in the whole, again, 52 pages in the original decree, probably not the way to do it. So anyone who is going through a divorce, very, very, very carefully consider why you need all those extra nitty-gritty provisions because it might not work out the way you want it to.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, and are you doing it for you or are you doing it because you’re just trying to placate the other side because they’re being such a jerk?

Elisabeth: It’s really about the kids. Kiddo, in my case, we only had one. So it’s not like we really needed to have probably 20 pages of detailing all these extra things. And Stefani was really helpful in helping me figure out what I could back off of and also prioritize the things that I knew definitely did not work. The things would be nice to have removed, but they weren’t quite as critical for me. We had a communication provision in the original order that did not work out as intended. We had a notification of paramore’s provision in the order that did not work out as intended. And I really wanted kiddo to be able to go to a Montessori school specifically instead of being ordered to attend a public school attached to my address. And those are really my top priorities. Everything else, I mean yeah, I wanted to pare it back a lot. But when push came to shove, I really had to prioritize what was important and what was not. And Stefani helped me focus down on what needed to happen.

Jake Gilbreath: Yeah, so how did you see that play out in trial then?

Elisabeth: Well, it played out well in trial, but also I think in part it played out well in trial because at the last minute before trial was rescheduled for the third time, it was a long case, a new CPS case was reported, and that’s when things really went left. So the fact that the timing of everything, Stefani was able to pick apart what was said and what was accused and alleged.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, to be clear, I think coincidentally, right before trial, as I recall, there was a magical CPS allegation against you all of a sudden.

Elizabeth: Correct.

Jake Gilbreath: What a coincidence. I think it was about a month before the trial was set.

Elisabeth: I had felt like something was probably going to be said simply by the way he had been communicating, and I didn’t know anything for sure. He said a couple things in deposition that made me go, hmm. But when the second CPS case was started, it was something that I frankly never would’ve expected to be said about our kiddo, about the situation. Her behavior, in my opinion, did not support it. I mean, of course, I cooperated with everything fully, probably I tried to be so cooperative, the night that I heard about the allegation, I contacted CPS just to make sure you have my current contact information, you have everything that you need from me. I tried to really go above and beyond because I didn’t understand it.

And so Stefani, as things continued to drip out from the situation, Stefani helped really keep me centered, keep me calm, remind me, “You’re doing everything right. It’s a difficult situation. Yes, there’s no denying that. However, you have done everything the way that you need to do it.” She was very helpful also in communicating the latest legal developments to the CPS investigator. So I was very grateful and relieved. I mean, the allegations against me were not true. I can tell you that for a fact. But then also when we got the CPS determination letter for the investigation, that happened probably days before trial, which did not seem to make my co-parent happy. But that being said, I mean, you reap what you sow. And I know that I did do some things not imperfectly, but I also know that I never put my child in danger and I never harmed her and I would never harm her.

Jake Gilbreath: Well, talk to us about, and then so the end of the story then, how did trial go?

Elisabeth: Trial went surprisingly well. I, again, really did a lot of therapy, and so I was trying to handle my own emotions and just keep calm and cool and collected and not provide any opportunities for my co-parent to say that I was handling the situation poorly. And Stefani handled all the legal stuff. It was very, very helpful to be able to have her select the most meaningful pieces of evidence from the probably thousands of pages of documents that I turned over during the whole discovery bit. I mean, by the time we got to the modification trial, I want to say the OurFamilyWizard messages logs alone were over 500 pages. So as you can imagine, that’s a lot to pick from. I’m pretty sure I would’ve chosen different things because of my emotions about everything, but that’s not what would’ve mattered really to the court. So it was very, very helpful to have Stefani’s calm, cool, collected, incisive questioning just guide the process. And she helped my co-parent reveal some things that were very surprising on the stand that I had not actually heard about before.

And the result was everything that I asked for, I was able to secure. Nothing that my co-parent asked for, he secured. He still got some wins. So it’s not like I was just trying to take time away from him and you can’t do this. You can’t do the other. I wanted, if anything, to give him freedom to live his life the way he wanted to without feeling controlled by me. So he got more time with the kiddo. We got kiddo, she’s now enrolled in a Montessori school, and she’s doing so well. It’s really awesome. Learning how to read. She’s four and half. so this is a big shift. You can just see her brain soaking up all of the goodness at her new school. And then because it became quite clear to the judge who was difficult and confrontational, we also got an award of over 60% of attorney’s fees for the modification suit. And I had hoped, but I didn’t pin my hopes on that because I understand that’s somewhat rare.

Jake Gilbreath: Really, really rare, I would say. But when we talk about it, and I know Stefani and you had this conversation, when you say the judge can, at the end, order attorney’s fees and a custody case. And it’s rare, but if you’re going to get them, it’s going to be because you’re reasonable, that you take reasonable positions, just like you were saying, Elizabeth, how you’re actually willing to let him have some wins when nobody made you do that and that you are willing to do that. And you’re willing to work on your own. I mean, we all have weaknesses as a parent, right? And you’re actually willing to work on your weaknesses and acknowledge your weaknesses. If you’re going to get attorney’s fees, it’s going to be because you’ve done all those things.

And that can be hard to hear. My guess, it’s probably hard for you going through it to hear like, “Hey, we need to do these things,” because one, it’s the right thing to do, but it’s also going to pay off in the trial setting. You have to trust the system and trust the process. That can be really hard for clients to hear because you don’t see the immediate result. But then six months down the road, a year down the road, or whenever you’re trying the case, how many clients have come to me or my associates and go, “Oh, I get it now. Now I know why you were telling me to do that.” But if you don’t have a lawyer that’s willing to do that, that’s willing to just not give you any direction, not communicate with you, and then just shows up at the end, if they show up at all, then you’re not going to be in that situation where you’re going to have as good of an outcome.

I would say trial, and correct me if I’m wrong, but from the client’s perspective, it’s a slow burn where you see at the end all the hard work that you’ve put into it, both personally and with your lawyer.

Elisabeth: There were many points at which I wanted to say a lot, and I just had to put a pin in it, have my thoughts, deal with that in therapy. But to my co-parent, I had to approach the situation just the same as if it were a co-worker that I might not have personally been so fond of, but we had a mutual goal in mind, we had something that we had to accomplish together and we just had to work through it. And I could not make things more difficult. Even if in my opinion, he was making things difficult, I could not fight fire with fire. A lot of times I would send Stefani an email and say, “I can’t believe he’s doing this, that, and the other.” It’s like, yes, that sucks. I’m sorry. This is not a fight worth really digging your heels in over. In the long run. If you fight over everything, none of it means anything. So I know it sucks, but you got to back off.

It was hard to hear that, but ultimately it worked. It really did. I think the judge saw that I had really tried in a very difficult situation to not meet the hostility, in my opinion, that I had received with more in return and without having someone who understood, not only, I mean, yes, of course the law, but also how the judges interpret the law, and especially how they interpret the law in Austin versus in Dallas or Houston. I mean, there’s a different personality to every city, there’s a different culture to every city, and you get to play to the audience. You can’t just dig your heels in on everything.

Some things are going to matter more some places than others, and being able to have someone who understood not only the dynamics of my co-parent and I personally, but also the broader dynamics of how certain things typically play out, it was really helpful for me backing off some of my frustration, and again, learning to prioritize what is worth really going to bat over a calm, cool, and collected way. And what? It sucks, but you just got to work with it and it’s not your business. What happens at dad’s house is dad’s house, dad’s rules. Mom’s house, mom’s rules. You have no input, no influence, no ability to control. You shouldn’t even want to control what’s going on over there. I mean, you split up. That’s a good thing, clearly from all evidence available, and you just got to learn to live with the time that you have and appreciate what you got and not make everything and knock down, drag out, fight.

Jake Gilbreath: Absolutely. Well, to wrap up the story, I’m so glad that you shared all this with us. Is there any parting advice that you’d give? As somebody who’s been through litigation and worked with multiple law firms, what’s some parting advice you’d give our listeners?

Elisabeth: A couple things. Number one, hire the right attorney early. And the right attorney is not necessarily the one who bills the cheapest or says the right things to you. Someone who gets the case and the forum and is ready for the level of complexity you’re fixing to throw at them. Therapy. For the love of all things holy, please go to therapy. If you have any sort of a custody case, you have feelings about it, and it’s no one else’s job to handle them but yours. So get a therapist, talk to your therapist. Deal with the complicated things with your therapist. Listen to your attorney’s advice and follow it. And follow it. Very important. Be reasonable, even when it’s hard. It will pay off. Again, it will be hard, but that’s what the therapy’s for. And document. Document, document, document. It’s patterns that matter, not the immediate feeling. It’s the patterns that matter.

Jake Gilbreath: That is all really good advice, Elizabeth. So I really appreciate you joining us today. That was phenomenal. So I can’t thank you enough. And I know it’s a really hard part of your life. I’m really glad and really appreciative that we were able to help you through that journey.

So for all our listeners, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Elizabeth. As always, if y’all have any follow up questions to this episode or have any suggestions for the podcast or feedback, we love feedback. We love suggestions. Please reach out to us at the podcast at WaltersGilbreath.com. You can of course contact us directly at our website, which is WaltersGilbreath.com. Again, thank you so much, Elisabeth, and thank all y’all for listening.