Your hosts have earned a reputation as fierce and effective advocates inside and outside of the courtroom. Both partners are experienced trial attorneys who have been board certified in family law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization.
Brian Walters:Thanks for tuning into ‘For Better, Worse, or Divorce’ podcast where we provide you with tips and insights on how to navigate divorce and child custody situations. I’m Brian Walters, partner at Walters Gilbreath and today we’re honored to be joined by Raiford Palmer, chief operating officer and shareholder of STG Divorce Law in Illinois. And author of ‘I Just Want This to Be Done: How Smart Successful People Get Divorced Without Losing Their Kids, Money and Minds’. Good title by the way. Raiford concentrates on high net worth and complex asset divorces, especially involving real estate and business interest. And we felt he would be a perfect guest to have on our show to discuss some of the issues we hear about in interstate in complex divorce cases at our firm. By the way, I did an intake yesterday with one from your neighboring state of Minnesota, is where the client was and the case is down here in Texas, so yeah, it’s common. So anyway, do you remember how we ran into each other, our origin story?
Raiford Palmer: We met through a management group online I’m pretty sure, and that’s how I got to know you. And then we’ve had a couple of cases we’ve talked about back and forth and referred some clients, so it’s been a great relationship.
Brian Walters: Yeah, absolutely. I remember that and it’s been helpful. So tell us a little bit about yourself. We talk about ourselves all the time so that’s boring. So, tell us a little bit about you, where you grew up and how you decided to be a lawyer and how you ended up where you are now in your legal career.
Raiford Palmer: Sure. I was actually born at Fort Benning, Georgia. My dad was a soldier. I grew up in the Chicago area. My family’s originally from the Chicago area and I’m one of those people that knew I wanted to be a lawyer when I was pretty young. My grandfather wanted me to be an attorney. Eventually, I decided to go to law school and I enjoyed it. I was the first lawyer in the family, clerked in a large firm. First to see if I liked it before I went to school and when I went to law school, I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer and try cases and be a gunslinger like in the movies. And I started out doing personal injury. I did commercial litigation, I did business transactional work. I’ve had several lives in this business and in the early 2000s I started doing divorce work accidentally.
I had a personal injury client ask me to do her divorce and I took the case, and then she told friends, and they told friends and next thing I knew I was doing divorce and it sort of took over. So, divorce chose me, I did not choose family law and divorce, but I ended up enjoying it. And through evolution of different firms, businesses, I ended up being recruited by STG and now I manage the law firm.
Brian Walters: Yeah, it sounds like a fairly familiar story to me. I’m a military brat too except I was born in Florida, so not far from Fort Benning. I was born down in Pensacola and I had family members, sort of like you. I actually did have an uncle that was a lawyer and a judge eventually so he was a big influence on me. I think it’s really smart that you clerked for a law firm before you went to law school. It’s usually the other way around and it’s a little bit late, so you actually know what you’re getting into. I think that’s really smart to do.
And I’m sort of like you too, I started out doing medic. I practiced defense and then I went out on my own. And you’re right, that’s what started coming in the door and that seemed to be what I was well suited for and here I am, sort of similar stories. Okay, well tell us about your book. That’s quite an accomplishment. I’ve sat down to write a book once or twice but have yet to complete the task, so tell us how you chose it and how you finished it. To me, that seems like the hardest part.
Raiford Palmer: So, I have had an idea in mind for a book, actually a couple different books for many years. It was something I thought about from time to time and never had the time to do. When the pandemic came along, once the law firm was stabilized, I could tell we were going to be okay through the pandemic after a couple months of turmoil that everybody I think went through. I realized I had some time to work on a project like this since we couldn’t go on vacations and we couldn’t go anywhere. I had a lot of free time and I looked into the project and decided to go forward with it. So, I found an editor, a ghost writer who helped me and coached me through the book. I wrote the book, but he was invaluable in helping me research, structure it, and then coach me through the writing process.
So, I had somebody making sure I was on task every week and helping me, like any good coach. Helping me make sure I was doing it properly and then he edited the book and then helped me get it published online. His name’s Joshua Leisik, he’s excellent. And so that’s how it happened. It took about a year and then the marketing is getting the word out about the book and that’s an ongoing process.
I always wanted to tell client stories that were informative for people and share the secrets that divorce lawyers never talk about. I wanted to put out a book that was full of what I call unGoogleable advice, the things that you, I’m sure and I have been telling clients for years based on our experience, based on things we’ve learned through our handling many, many cases, and the things that we would tell our best friend if they were getting divorced. And that’s what I wanted to have in the book, not some dry chapter about child support or alimony or something about custody. That’s all on the internet and you can talk to any number of people about that information. That’s sort of rote information.
What I wanted was to ‘spill the tea’ for people as they say. I want to tell the secrets that they don’t otherwise hear about and put something out there that people would really want to read, not just a vanity project that I can tell people I’m an author. I wanted to write a real book and I wanted to write it myself. I had help editing it but I wanted to do it myself, and I did. That’s how it came to be.
Brian Walters:Nice. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think the coach thing is probably key and I think that’s a really good way to write a book. Because you’re right, you can Google all day long about “How’s my child support going to be calculated?” But what value is that? Plus, the law changes so it may not be useful in a couple of months.
Raiford Palmer: And I wanted to write a book that was more or less timeless, that would be just as good to read five years from now as it was when it was published. So that was another thing; don’t make it tied to any one state or state law and don’t have it tied to a point in time. Because as you point out, the laws change constantly, and I wanted to have a book that had nationwide appeal. In fact, I sell books in the UK, Canada and Australia. So, the advice is still good even in other countries where I don’t know the divorce law there. But the book isn’t about that, so thanks for asking about it.
Brian Walters: So, let’s talk about that situation, where this is increasingly common in our society. I deal with it a lot, I’m sure you do too. Where you have people that are going to get divorced or have a child custody matter and they’re in different states at the time. That problem pops up, or they just moved to a new state, or one of them has moved and one of them hasn’t or they’re thinking about making a move. So let’s talk through that. You and I are in two of the biggest states in the country and lots of people going back and forth between our two states or wherever, so as I see it, there’s really two different categories. There’s the divorce part, property, alimony, that kind of stuff, and there’s a set of rules for that. And then there’s a very different set of rules as it relates to children.
Technically, there’s a subset of that about child support. That there’s a different law that governs that, but that governs where that’s going to be determined. But we’ll get to that when we get a little further down. What I’ve found also is that Texas is one of the most unusual states when it comes to divorce as it relates to the property division, alimony, etcetera on several different levels. Whenever I talk to lawyers in other states, they’re constantly surprised at the rules here and what goes on here. Not in a bad way, just that it’s different. And so maybe rather than talking about 50 different states and what those things might be, we can just talk broadly about it. I’m sure you have some experience in other states. I’m not licensed in other states but I know a little bit, enough to be dangerous.
But maybe we can walk through some samples or examples of. Let’s say the husband was in Illinois and the wife was in Texas and they’re getting ready to get divorced, and we might want to look at how that’d be different. So let’s take a sample. Maybe they’ve been married 20 years, the husband makes a million dollars a year. He owns a business and the wife has been a stay-at-home mom. The last of the kids are out of the house now. So tell me what, under Illinois law, and let’s say they had $5 million in total assets, under Illinois law, just broadly, how would the court look at that? And maybe we’ll break it down into pieces. Well, how would the court look at that business? How would the court look at alimony? How would the court there look at how to divide that $5 million estate? Can you just give just a really broad sample?
Raiford Palmer: So I’ll give you some broad brush strokes. The business, assuming it’s marital property so it was created during the marriage.
Brian Walters: Yes. Let’s say that.
Raiford Palmer: Then the value of the business would be determined either by agreement or through a trial, if the parties had to have a trial. The value of that business would be divided equally, assuming the typical fact situation, and that $5 million estate would be divided equally. Our law says equitable division, but in most cases that ends up being an equal division, unless there’s an unusual set of facts. So, in a case like that, I would tell someone they could expect an equal division of the estate. Then they’ll be paying maintenance. If they’re married over 20 years in Illinois, maintenance, which is alimony, is payable on what’s known as an indefinite basis or what we used to call permanent. Which means until termination events like the person’s retirement, death of either person, remarriage of the recipient of support, or cohabitation – the recipient of support moves in with somebody in almost a marriage-like relationship.
So, in that case, maintenance would terminate, otherwise it goes indefinitely. And maintenance is calculated. Since 2015 we have now a guideline system for maintenance, where both incomes are included in a formula, and it is using net income to calculate the resulting maintenance. That’s been adjusted slightly since the tax changes in 2017 or so, the tax cuts and jobs act so that’s been adjusted. But maintenance at one time was just a set of heuristics or rough rules of thumb the courts would follow, and so you had widely varying results with the same facts. From downstate Illinois to Chicago, lawyers would always bemoan the fact that they could never get any consistency. We’d have these meetings statewide. Divorce lawyer meetings or seminars where they’d run through facts and errors and they have five judges, six judges from all over the state.
And like a game show and they’d say, “Here’s the facts. Now write down on the back of a card what you do for maintenance.” And they’d flip it up and they’d be so different, everybody would start laughing. One judge would deny it, the other judge would order a huge number for a term of a number of years, and everybody would laugh because that’s how crazy it was. Well, finally they have some consistency. We have a formula, but above 500,000 in combined income, it’s back to the rules of thumb. What we find is generally, the courts still apply the formula and then look at it as a yardstick and then decide, do they like it or not like it? And then they bend it according to what they think is appropriate in a given case.
So in the million dollar income case, it’s a little more your guess is as good as mine as to what the numbers would be. Probably they’d run the formula, look at the resulting numbers and decide if that looks good and likely go with that. That’s about as good as we can get, but there’s a lot more certainty in child support and maintenance than we had. Well, child support’s been a formula for decades but they revised it to a dual income model in 2017, so we now have both incomes taken into account in coming up with a child support figure.
So that’s basically the rundown, 50/50 assets, probably some type of payment plan on the business to pay off the value of that business to the other spouse or using some of those other assets to balance, and statutory child support which is based on a guideline system. And some courts would deviate above that because it’s above the top income in the child support formula. It is somewhere around 300,000, and interestingly enough. The child support in our state now, as the incomes increase, the rate of increase on child support decreases. It used to be a direct correlation. So it’s pretty dramatically changed. Child support used to be the big driver in the support dollars, and now it’s reversed. Now maintenance in cases where maintenance people qualify, tends to be the bigger number.
Brian Walters:Interesting. Yeah, that is, and it’s different in different states. I’m sure of that too. So here, I think there’s some similarities if we were to divide that property and it’d be different here in some ways. I agree with you, they’re only going to divide marital property. We have a community property system so it’s all marital property. But there’s what’s called separate property, which would be before the marriage, gifts, inheritance. It’s usually before marriage that these are the most common ones, so that’s similar I think these days in most states. They value the business. One thing we do differently here is we basically back out the value of. If I’m a business owner and working in the business, they basically value out my inputs into the business. So sure, if I was a solo lawyer for example and even if I made a lot of money in the business, it would be of zero value, in Texas at least, because they can’t divide me basically.
Raiford Palmer: That’s actually the same in Illinois. I failed to mention that. Your personal goodwill is backed out of the business and like you said, in a pure service business where it’s all personal goodwill, an accountant or a solo physician or something. That income stream is the business and that’s considered taken care of in alimony and child support.
Brian Walters: Yeah, exactly.
Raiford Palmer: So you’re absolutely right.
Brian Walters:And then sort of similar to Illinois, I know for example, California, as I understand has a rule of it’s just 50/50. If it’s community property, it’s 50/50. And the claims and whatever, you can put against that but just on the surface, it is 50/50, like you guys, it’s fair and just distribution of the property. Sort of like you guys, it’s equitable. However, we have the judges here deviating from 50/50 fairly frequently, usually not a lot. 55% under the right facts is usually a pretty good outcome in our system. 60% is rare but occasionally occurs. That’s very rare and might be reversible. But they do deviate a bit some and I think the reason is for what we’ll get into in a second, which is the alimony. Which essentially, there is none.
We don’t technically have alimony. We have something called spousal maintenance, which is very difficult to get and is not intended to provide long-term support. It’s intended for I think the old scenario of the stay-at-home mom with four kids and then dad runs off with his secretary after they’ve been married 20 years. And let’s say she gave up a teaching job or nursing job 15 years ago, you might get in rare cases one or two years of support, and not a lot. Just maybe it’s a high income earner, it’s not a lot. It’s up to 25% of your income, but again, it’s almost never given. It’s for very short if it is, and usually it’s only for very high-end earners and it’s capped at 5,000 a month. So for a high end earner, it’s a nominal amount.
It’s not tax-deductible like you said, like it used to be. That did change back in 2017, but that’s one of the big differences here. Now, as people get married later in life on average and you come up on retirement and those kinds of things, maybe it’s not that big of a difference. But if somebody’s getting divorced when they’re 65, who cares? But it can make a difference, certainly with younger couples. But of course then they’re married a shorter time which means they may not qualify for the longer period of time. And I don’t know what the stats are, I’d be real interested to know what the remarriage rates are. I know what remarriage rates are in general, they’re very high. But I wonder what they are if there’s a large alimony payment. I wonder if that affects people’s behavior.
Raiford Palmer: Interesting. Yeah, I’d like to know that too.
Brian Walters: So that’s a big difference and I’ve had people basically fight over things on that basis about, “No, we want it to be in Texas” or don’t want it to be because of the alimony issue. Because otherwise, I think it’s the same. I will say this. We don’t have legal separation in Texas and so you’re in a single economic unit until you get divorced. So, in a contentious case which could last a year and a half or two years. Really 50% of the money is going to the other spouse anyway and so if you have two years of that, that basically would offset maybe, I don’t know, four years of 25% or whatever the numbers are that it might be in other state.
So especially for shorter marriages, I’m not sure, it’s such a dramatic change but it can be. It can be real large. And on child support. By the way, there is a specific law on child support called UIFSA. Uniform Interstate Family Support Act, which governs where the child support is going to be calculated. And unlike the custody part which we’re going to talk about, it basically is going to be where the person paying child support lives. If they’re in different states, there can be some exceptions but generally, that’s the case, which kind of makes sense. That’s the state you live in, that’s who’s taxing you, that’s where you live. You should probably apply those rules in the state where you reside.
And in Texas, the big difference I think is that there’s a cap on child support for all practical purposes. So for one kid, it’s basically 1800 bucks a month. It’s tax free, it’s not chump change but if you make $10 million a year, you’re paying $1,800 a month in child support. Elon Musk is a Texas resident and he’s paying $1,800 a month on child support if he’s ordered to pay it. So that’s a big difference in other states which don’t have caps, or have sort of like you, maybe it’s not dollar. But we also don’t have offsets from the other person’s salary. We just have just a person earning. So there are a lot of differences. I’ve found more differences state to state with child support than I have on all most other issues except alimony, so that’s how it is.
Raiford Palmer: The interesting thing in Illinois was when our maintenance law was amended, when the judges used to use the rules of thumb, you might say the 11 or 12 factors they would take into consideration. It was rare to see maintenance in shorter marriages. So, if the marriage was, we used to tell people, if you’re married less than five years, forget it. Your chance of getting maintenance was slim to none. Five to seven years, maybe. Seven to 10 years, probably but it’d be very short term. 10 to 20 years, yes, you’re going to get maintenance. And there were just these rules of thumb that we knew depending on the courthouse. And one of the interesting things about the guideline was you get maintenance almost in any case, even a very short marriage, but it’s scaled to the length of the marriage. So, if you’re married one year, you get a month of maintenance or something incredibly small. And every five years is essentially 25% of the length of the marriage more or less when it scales each year up to 20.
So yeah, that’s really been a shift is that you can expect maintenance in almost any case now. Now, it’d be nominal for some people or very short term, but that’s a fairly big change that we didn’t have before. And then with our child support statute, now both incomes being involved, it’s generally lowered child support for payors, I would say across the board. And the other interesting twist in the statute is if you have more than 40% of the overnights and you’re the support payor, your child support is cut dramatically. It’s roughly half for the average payor, so the unfortunate result of this breakpoint is everyone fights over 40% overnights.
And the payors always say, “I want X, I want 145 or 146 overnights,” which is 40% or whatever. And magically that’s what they want. Or they say they want 50/50, which a lot of people genuinely do want equal time. But if they get over the 40%, they know there’s a big cut in child support. And what they’re talking about doing in our legislature is amending the law to make it a sliding scale, so it isn’t such a dramatic impact where people are gunning for this number. And we don’t have a mandatory equal parenting time law in Illinois.
Brian Walters: 10 years from now, it’s hard to imagine that not being pretty common, but it isn’t here yet. It gets proposed every year in Texas, and actually legislature’s in session again but it hasn’t ever gotten serious support, but it’s kind of hard to argue against in a logical way. Okay, and on kids’ stuff, so there were some very specific rules. There’s UCCJEA that all 50 states have passed. I think Massachusetts tweaked it slightly, it had to be different, but basically with a new case where the kids have never been to court, it’s going to be where the kids live now or have lived the past six months. That can be tricky. If a couple’s relocated from Texas to Chicago, or mom relocated from Chicago to Texas three months ago and now there’s a divorce filing, what do we do?
There are some rules about those short-term things, but that can make a big difference. We just talked about how child support, although that’s more where the payor is living but it’s usually at the same place, that can be affected. Texas also allows juries to make custody decisions, the only state that does so. Well, I’m not sure I could say that makes a difference across the board but it’s interesting. And then of course the other rules are when there’s a modification, so let’s say you’ve been divorced and then five years later somebody goes back and wants to change custody of the kids. Essentially with that, when you go back to the state where the original order was made, the divorce, and as long as anybody’s still living there, they’re going to at least start the case there. If not, it’d be where the kids have been living the past six months.
And there’s all kinds of tweaks and variations on that. We have a case where they were overseas with foreign service, and went from Azerbaijan to Virginia, and one spouse went to Texas, and one went to Virginia and the kids went to Virginia. And we’re litigating where that is because they haven’t lived in any of these states for six months and nobody’s going to go back to Azerbaijan and litigate it there. There’s all kinds of funny things there that can occur and it can be a little surprising. So people might want to talk to lawyers about when they’re making that move or if they’re splitting up and going, or if they’re thinking and moving. All these things can make a big difference. I think in particular these kind of outlier cases where you’ve got maybe one person making a lot of money and one that doesn’t work, that could be a big difference, or where there’s certain property situations that might be tricky or not. So something to think about.
Raiford Palmer: So Brian, what’s the Texas rule on relocation? So what does one need to do to move their children out of state?
Brian Walters:There’s nothing firm about it. It’s disfavored, right? So, let’s say folks get divorced in Dallas and they just moved here from somewhere else. This is a common story. They moved from Chicago a year ago. They get to Dallas, they split up. That didn’t help the marriage and mom, say stay at home mom, wants to go back to Chicago. Her whole family’s up there, the kids’ friends are still up there. They’ve only been in Dallas six months or a year. Frankly, Texas is probably going to keep everybody in Dallas because the focus is not on what mom wants to do and on what dad wants to do. It’s the best interest of the child or children, and best interest of the children, the overriding view of the court is that means both parents are close by and actively involved, and that really can only happen if they’re both in the same 10 or 20 or 30 miles from each other. So Texas is very hesitant to allow it.
I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen juries be a little more open to it than judges, but I think generally – I will also say that I’ve seen people buy the solution to that. In other words, if there’s a divorce and your wife wants to move back to Chicago, maybe be really generous on the property and make it so that she can make a go of it in Texas, and maybe that’s her biggest concern is finances, or vice versa. If dad doesn’t want mom to go back to Chicago, maybe mom needs to work out a visitation schedule or something that would make it. If you come back to Chicago, I’ll give you 50/50 or something like that, where there’s a win-win instead of a conflict over it.
Because those cases can be very, very expensive and lengthy cases to litigate because it’s important. You don’t want your kids living halfway across the country if you can avoid it, and so you’re going to fight to keep them in town. And if you’re the parent who wants to move back home where you grew up and have lived 45 of 46 years, that’s important to you. I get it on both sides. So at least that’s the way it is here. How about you guys in Chicago about that issue?
Raiford Palmer:It used to be relocate outside of the state, it was a state border and that created some unusual situations where the family lived a mile from northwest Indiana for example, and so the logic was, “Well, I can move to Cairo, Illinois, which is four and a half hours or five hours south, but I can’t go one mile over the state line into Indiana.” So, we now have a statute that it’s a 25- or 50-mile radius restriction from basically the child’s original residence. And you need a court order to get the relocation outside of that radius or consent of the spouse and some forms that have to be filled out. So that’s relatively recent, that’s a few years old now, to try to rectify that inconsistency because so many people in the Chicago area live fairly close to the Wisconsin or Indiana borders and that motivated that change.
But similar, there are a number of factors, best interest of the child being number one, and like you said, I would say it’s generally disfavored, similar to Texas. But what’s interesting is we’re seeing an increasing trend line in the cases of relocations being allowed even out of state and some quite far away, and I think in our increasingly mobile society, that’s something that courts have to wrestle with on an increasing basis. And folks want to move to Texas from Illinois, they’re moving to Florida, they’re moving to moving south. There’s been a net out migration from our state, and as a result, we’re seeing more of these situations develop.
Brian Walters: Yeah, interesting. And we’ve seen the trend the other way where it’s gotten harder and harder to relocate, so it’s interesting. And there’s not as much net out migration here, although there’s always people going back and forth. So anyway. Well, I think we had a couple of listener questions we can hop through real quick, try to answer those and then we can let folks get back to their busy day. So here’s one of them. “My wife and I were married in another state eight years ago. We moved to Texas four months ago and are now getting divorced. Do I need a Texas attorney, or do I need one from Michigan where they moved from?” And I assume that’s where they were married in this example. So I guess that’s a Texas question so I can sort of answer it.
Interestingly, you can’t file for divorce yet. You have to be here six months and that example is four months. Now, if you have kids, you could since everybody’s left Michigan. You could file a custody case in Texas on an emergency basis and then convert it to a regular one at six months, but you have to be a resident of Texas for six months before you file. But short answer, you’re going to get divorced in Texas, not Michigan, almost for certain. It doesn’t matter where you got married, it doesn’t matter really where you lived most of the time. It really matters when comes time to get divorced, what state are you living in? Now if you’re in different states, this goes back to our earlier discussion. Maybe in that case one of them went ahead from Michigan to Texas and one stayed behind. You could probably file in either state, it’d probably be whoever filed first would be the winner of that race.
Raiford Palmer: And this one’s assuming no children where you’d have that UCCJEA issue. If the kids were there, that would tend to be outcome determined. Well, at least in Illinois, that drives everything. I’ve had these interstate issues between Illinois, California, Illinois, Florida. If the home state’s Illinois, the divorce will be handled in Illinois, even if jurisdiction’s proper in both states on personal jurisdiction grounds or for the marriage.
Brian Walters:Absolutely. All right. The next question is, “My spouse and I have a vacation home in another state. Can a Texas attorney help us with that as we divide our assets in our divorce?” It’s not clear from this hypothetical. I’m assuming these are both Texans, let me assume that, and that they have a vacation home in Illinois, let’s say. Can a Texas attorney still help us as we divide our assets in, I’m going to assume, a Texas divorce? So the short answer would be we could help you get divorced and assign who’s going to get that vacation home, but there’s almost certainly going to need to be a deed of some kind. Let’s say the wife ends up with the vacation home in Illinois. I’ve got one of these exact situations in Minnesota right now. So, in that case, we had to go up to Minnesota to try to find a Minnesota attorney to help us draft the deed. That would deed the case, deed it over to the person who was going to end up with it. Is that the situation also in Illinois, I would assume?
Raiford Palmer: Exactly the same, and a lot of folks in our experience have vacation homes in Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Florida, so we deal with this quite often. And you’re exactly right, we can deal with allocating the property, but then a lawyer locally has to deal with the actual transfer of ownership.
Raiford Palmer: Just like you said.
Brian Walters:And one last question there. This hypothetical involves Florida. I’m going to change that to Illinois just so we can talk about it. It’ll be the same answer, I’m sure. It says, “My ex is not following our parenting plan that was finalized in Illinois in 2018. She still lives in Florida, but I moved to San Antonio two years ago. San Antonio, Texas. Would I file an enforcement in Illinois or Texas?” What would you say to that?
Raiford Palmer:So in this scenario, the parenting plan finalized in Illinois, the other parent still lives in Florida so the other parent moved to Texas in 2021. Enforcement action is going to be in the home state where those kids are, so that’s going to be Illinois. That’s where that judgment was entered.
Brian Walters:Yeah, I agree, and that’s a little unfortunate and a little bit of a hassle but those are the rules. It’s got to be someplace and we don’t want people filing in two different states, and that would be a nightmare. Okay. Well, very good. Well, thanks for getting on with us and chatting about this and it’s always good to learn about other states and other things, and talk to somebody who’s actually completed a book. If I actually decide to do that one day, I will follow your advice. And so, thanks again.
Raiford Palmer:Thank you.
Brian Walters: We will talk soon.
Raiford Palmer: It’s my pleasure to be on the show. Thank you very much, Brian.
Brian Walters:Well, that’s all we have for today. If you like what you heard, do us a favor and leave us a review. We appreciate all your feedback, especially since it helps us make a better podcast. I can’t thank Raif enough for joining us today. If you’re interested in reaching out to him, his website as well as the link to purchase his book will be posted on the episode notes and description. Thanks again for listening. We’ll be back in a couple of weeks with our next episode regarding divorces with shared businesses. Thank you
For information about the topics covered in today’s episode and more, you can visit our website at waltersgilbreath.com. Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode of For Better or Worse or Divorce, where we post new episodes every first and third Wednesday. Do you have a topic you want discussed or a question for our hosts? Email us firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks for listening. Until next time.